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Nerf this wing

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1 Nerf this wing on Fri May 21, 2010 1:46 pm

scropiondog

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I've seen that the Fading Vortex Wings is imbalance in pvp, basically, you wait for someone to pop out and then kill them. This particular wing is a very pvp-altering gear. Only thief class should be able to move while hidden. That's why there's the purpose of smokie card ( lets the usage of lvl 1 hide ) and frilldora card ( lets the usage of lvl 1 cloak near obstacle ). Please take this into consideration. This wing should be removed Smile

2 Re: Nerf this wing on Fri May 21, 2010 11:51 pm

Njord

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You have a good point about the unfairness this is to thief classes. I understand your request.

I'd like responses from the staff and any player who has an opinion on this matter.

3 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 8:49 am

banryun

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There's a cloak-enabling card available from one of the Lighthalzen mobs which allow this. I think it's only fair to make this wing as hard to get as the card, but not necessarily harder.

Part of the balancing involves choosing which armor to equip. When they're wearing the FV wings, remember that they're giving up the chance to wear skill-casting wings and element-changing wings and so on. The Assassin card has its advantages and is still going to be preferred because its unobtrusive (you keep it on your garment, allowing you to wear wings with another effect).

Since Maya Purple cards are available, this situation isn't too bad.

In conclusion: This GM thinks it's fine to keep them, if only we'd make the quest a bit harder than it is now. Smile

4 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 3:35 pm

alecalecalec

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i totally agree with scorpiondog. as a FV wing user i found that these things make some classes very imbalanced. like my minstrel for example i just wait till someone pops out then i disable and go for the kill. another example involves the sorcs this gives them a chance to cloak and fire deadly aoes when they feel like it. so i suggest a change to it's effect.

P.S the quest isn't easy at all. 5 kiel mvps ain't no joke.

P.P.S maya purple cards are so not available... lol

i love you all :>

5 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 4:24 pm

banryun

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alecalecalec wrote:i totally agree with scorpiondog. as a FV wing user i found that these things make some classes very imbalanced. like my minstrel for example i just wait till someone pops out then i disable and go for the kill. another example involves the sorcs this gives them a chance to cloak and fire deadly aoes when they feel like it. so i suggest a change to it's effect.

Yup. Just like with an Assassin or a hide clip: a class that can be uncloaked, at a distance or otherwise, through several different methods available in game (i.e. detect, sight, heaven's drive etc.). So I disagree.

The invisibility isn't the only thing contributing to your kills. You can perform pretty much the same even without it which leads me to conclude that it's your job now that requires scrutiny.

Regardless of effect, we're still talking about PvP. It's an arena where you're supposed to be on your toes. Anybody who neglects preparing for an invisible foe, regardless of class, ought to have prepared better. Especially since information about a wing giving that specific skill was freely available, if only the player had taken time to look.

P.S the quest isn't easy at all. 5 kiel mvps ain't no joke.

Not five. Three. And the monster drop required drops at 100%. Anyone who's managed to reach at least third class has skills that are potentially strong enough for a one on one battle with most MVPs; you can simply keep coming back after a trip to the healer/buffer. It's a lot easier, now that you mentioned it, since I remember that entire guilds do the actual hunting, not just individual players.

P.P.S maya purple cards are so not available... lol

False. These cards can be dropped already, and at a reasonable rate. It's a matter of diligence on your part rather than availability. If it were, nobody would ever manage to get that card, which you know isn't the case.

--

BUT!

If you are completely against the idea of other classes having access to the cloak and hide skill then we can discuss the thought of removing the Assassin and/or Smokie card completely, meaning only thief classes can be invisible and mobile at the same time.

You can post about it on a separate thread if you want so the posts don't get mixed up, and so we can evaluate the proposal/suggestion properly.

If you wanted a different effect, what did you have in mind?

6 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 5:26 pm

scropiondog

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^ do you mean removing smokie and frill? those are legit and original lol.

7 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 8:52 pm

banryun

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We could. >:D It could put a new spin on PvP for us.

8 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 9:37 pm

alecalecalec

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no. i don't think that the cards should be taken away since they take the garment slots. garment slots are actually one of the most important slots in the game because they provide certain immunities like raydrics, devilings, isis, hodes etc. cloaking on a lower headgear slot? ask yourself that question.

9 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 10:08 pm

Chocula

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The wing has the same effect with Assassin Cross Card.

As for the FVW, (1) It requires 3pcs of Pocket Watches (Drops at a 100% chance from Kiel [As Banryun stated earlier.] You can do it by asking help from friends/guildmates. (2) It also requires 200 Clock Hands which is not that hard to get since Alarms are rather weak if your level is that high enough.

As for the SinX Card, (1) It is droppable by a very low chance (0.20%), (2) Droppable by a strong MVP, (3) And the MVP is located in a place where there exists strong mobs.

Strategically, You won't need that strong wings mostly since you can just (cloak, wait for someone and spam attack [As Alec stated earlier]) him until he / she dies . You can even use cloaking again to escape if you felt inferiority when battling with an enemy.

As for my suggestion, it's either:
(1) Make the Quest Hard (Make Pocketwatches droppable at a low chance, Increase Clock Hands requirements.)
(2) Reduce the Level of Cloaking the Wing gives.
(3) Give negative effects when the wing is worn (Slower ASPD, Minus Stats, etc.)


_________________

10 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 10:21 pm

alecalecalec

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just change the effect. it kills the reason why we should hunt a sin x or frilldora card.

you don't even need to kill alarms. Clocks which are obviously weaker than alarms drop em at the same rate.

11 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 10:49 pm

banryun

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alecalecalec wrote:no. i don't think that the cards should be taken away since they take the garment slots. garment slots are actually one of the most important slots in the game because they provide certain immunities like raydrics, devilings, isis, hodes etc. cloaking on a lower headgear slot? ask yourself that question.

Glad we're on the same page about the cards.

Unfortunately, your argument still doesn't hold water. There are also several other skills and effects that are sacrificed when you choose to wear the FV wings, just like when you wear the garment's Assassin card.

It's about picking the right combination of equipment. If the new advantageous combination means using FVW instead of the Assassin card, then what's wrong with that? We're not trying to emulate the conventional server.

And as I insisted earlier: Cloaking isn't the only thing that determines a victory and it isn't a status that can't be lifted.

alecalecalec wrote:just change the effect. it kills the reason why we should hunt a sin x or frilldora card.

you don't even need to kill alarms. Clocks which are obviously weaker than alarms drop em at the same rate.

It does not "kill the reason why [you] should hunt" the sinx and frilldora cards since they are only alternative options. They're not even in competition since they're for different equipment slots, and thus could be utilized for different combinations of equipped wings and card-sets.

alecalecalec wrote:ask yourself that question.
By the by, we can do well without that kind of smart-mouthed comment. A repeat will merit an infraction.

alecalecalec wrote:just change the effect

As I said previously, what did you have in mind?


============================

@Chocula:

I agree with suggestions one and three. But lowering the level of cloak will reduce it to the same effect as a Frilldora card though. What about replacing it with Chase Walk so that any movement will still be noticeable? (There will be the STR bonus to consider though.)

What statuses did you have in mind?

12 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 11:03 pm

alecalecalec

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but it does kill the reason to hunt those cards. given the small selection of lower headgears that could be used in pvp as long as you aren't a thief class these wings are the best lower headgears you could get and i'm just not saying that as an opinion. the pvp ladder's top 1 "Doofensmirtz" uses FV "iamninoy" who is another sorc uses FV Raizella's sura uses FV "Oreo" uses FV and i also use FV even "Yggdrasil" wanted to make one and asked me to help her. it's becoming a uniform like the TVH in the days of DKASRO. the convenience of level 3 cloak plus out of nowhere diamond dusts, earthgraves, lullabies, pinpoints, asuras etc make this item more of a need than a want. plus you get to keep your garment slot.

13 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 11:14 pm

banryun

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I agree that it is popular, but popularity doesn't mean it's imbalanced. There ARE natural countermeasures to cloaked opponents, it's only a matter of questing them and then using them.

It may be one of the best but I don't think it's the only one either. Succubus wings, aqua wings and cat's bell, just to name a few, are all competitively useful wings. Without using a sinx card, you don't have the advantages of having both effects.

At this point, the best I can imagine one could complain about is the easiness in which someone got these items from the quests. Wouldn't you agree that if the sinx card was just as easily acquired that we'd see more people using that rather than wings instead?

By that logic I think the rational thing to do would be to make the quest harder, just to be fair. This is because choosing which wing or garment card to use in combination with your other equips is half of the strategy aspect already.

If the easiness of the quest isn't the problem, then logically it wouldn't be the wing either. It would be the fact that other classes have the cloak skill, and that cloak + other job skills is an advantageous combination. ----> Which is why I asked if you wanted it gone.

So if you don't think the easiness is the problem, is it the fact that other jobs are stronger with the cloak skill? If not, then please tell us what is.

14 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 11:32 pm

alecalecalec

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those wings you mentioned actually requires the player to attack the other player. let's say we're facing a player with FVH how would we manage that? other skills you might say. but the player with the FVH has his own skills too and has the element of surprise in his/her arsenal. pvp-wise we'd like to have the convenience of cloaking too.

that part about other players exhanging FVH for Sin X cards? i disagree. no other wing could replace the resistance given by certain garment cards. deviling wing could be a substitute but then again you'd like to have the option of choosing which element since any job class could throw any element type damage.

no i wouldn't want the wings and the cards gone. what i want is new effect for the wings something on tier with the other lower headgears.a chance to cast (_) or increase (_) damage by (_)%?

"ask yourself that question" about that i wasn't trying to be arrogant. i thought it would be something you'd tell me if we were in another situation. it's more of a Banryun and Alec thing =))

and yes most if not all job classes are stronger with the cloaking skill.

15 Re: Nerf this wing on Sat May 22, 2010 11:57 pm

banryun

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alecalecalec wrote:those wings you mentioned actually requires the player to attack the other player.

They may be attack-triggered effects but that doesn't make it any weaker. Not all classes have completely given up dps builds. I've tested dps builds that capitalize on this combination.

alecalecalec wrote:let's say we're facing a player with FVH how would we manage that? other skills you might say. but the player with the FVH has his own skills too and has the element of surprise in his/her arsenal.

It's a really powerful advantage, I agree. But read my message above: "Regardless of effect, we're still talking about PvP. It's an arena where you're supposed to be on your toes. Anybody who neglects preparing for an invisible foe, regardless of class, ought to have prepared better. Especially since information about a wing giving that specific skill was freely available, if only the player had taken time to look."

This is why we have the detect and other skills. If it's still not enough, there's always Maya Purple since this completely negates the enemies' advantage/element of surprise.

alecalecalec wrote:pvp-wise we'd like to have the convenience of cloaking too.

Nothing is stopping you there. Because of the wing, you have two ways to get it already.

alecalecalec wrote:that part about other players exhanging FVH for Sin X cards? i disagree. no other wing could replace the resistance given by certain garment cards.

That is true on some occasions, I agree, but that depends on your class and your fighting tactic. Not everyone is built to receive damage and rely on resistances to reduce said damage. Some people, as previously established, like to hide or cloak away after dealing damage. It's a matter of technique so you can't generalize and say that nobody else will.

And on the note of how there are "no other wing[s]", not all the equipment have been released. If you researched, there exists experimental wings such as the bloody yin yang which offer just that: damage reduction. You can't judge the current equip sets available as if they were final since the server is still in the beta and bugtesting stages. New things can still be implemented which is why the "no better wings" argument fails at this point.

alecalecalec wrote:deviling wing could be a substitute but then again you'd like to have the option of choosing which element since any job class could throw any element type damage.

This is why we don't claim for the wings to be an exact replacement for the garment slot. It's meant to challenge the player to combine, experiment and to sacrifice---not to give a single surefire route. If you wanted options, then you give up the cloak card. If you wanted the other wing effects, you give up the cloak wings. That's all there is. Wings aren't meant to be garment slot version two.

alecalecalec wrote:no i wouldn't want the wings and the cards gone. what i want is new effect for the wings something on tier with the other lower headgears.a chance to cast (_) or increase (_) damage by (_)%?

Understandable; I like having the card and wings too. But removing the cloak skill from the wing? That takes away the extra edge in equipment combining that we have now. If you take away the option to have an alternative like what I mentioned in the lines above, things become more clear cut and rigid. Your options for combinations grow fewer and less strategic planning will be necessary (not that you won't have any at all, since you'll still have a lot, only less).

Besides, if the wings' purposes were only for autocasting and resistances, what's gonna differentiate our server from all the other servers who do the same?

alecalecalec wrote:"ask yourself that question" about that i wasn't trying to be arrogant. i thought it would be something you'd tell me if we were in another situation. it's more of a Banryun and Alec thing =))

Understood. Kindly leave the personal/irl rapport outside of official discussions, please.

alecalecalec wrote:and yes most if not all job classes are stronger with the cloaking skill.

Stronger, but never invincible. Do you think it's a bad thing? Is it bad enough to completely remove as a wing?

16 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:11 am

Oreo

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why am i in the topic all the sudden ._. btw i got no FV xD

17 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:12 am

alecalecalec

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well to add to that i think that if the cloaking effect is removed. players would actually have the chance to create more personalized strategies. IMO cloak kill cloak or cloak killing fail "so i'll cloak again to escape" doesn't seem to be a very balanced strategy. further more it doesn't give the thief classes it's own edge on other classes. Considering Sin X and Frilldora cards well first of all the MVP holding the former is extremely hard to find and ofcourse kill that fact plus the fact that MVP cards drop at .20% I think anyone who's dilligent enough to farm that deserves to have cloak. Regarding the latter Frilldora cards give you level 1 cloaking in which you'll be needing walls to activate it.

Boy i'm hella active tonight. Don't you think so? Smile)

18 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:14 am

alecalecalec

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Oreo wrote:why am i in the topic all the sudden ._. btw i got no FV xD

yes you do. we pvp'ed before and your Royal Guard had them on.

19 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:16 am

Oreo

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no i don't ._. those were newbie wing blue.... i would know if i spend 3 out of 9 of my pocket watch ._.


and btw i am okie with the effect on this wing. if there is any changes i would suggest, that is to add in penalty like what chocula suggested. have posted my suggestion elsewhere already. thx.

20 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:21 am

banryun

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Oreo wrote:why am i in the topic all the sudden ._. btw i got no FV xD

Alec!

alecalecalec wrote:well to add to that i think that if the cloaking effect is removed. players would actually have the chance to create more personalized strategies. IMO cloak kill cloak or cloak killing fail "so i'll cloak again to escape" doesn't seem to be a very balanced strategy.

I agree, it sounds cheap. But everyone cloaking in pvp is an eventual byproduct of any private server with increased rates.

Also, people can still make personalized strategies without us forcing them by removing the cloak wings.

alecalecalec wrote:further more it doesn't give the thief classes it's own edge on other classes. Considering Sin X and Frilldora cards well first of all the MVP holding the former is extremely hard to find and ofcourse kill that fact plus the fact that MVP cards drop at .20% I think anyone who's dilligent enough to farm that deserves to have cloak. Regarding the latter Frilldora cards give you level 1 cloaking in which you'll be needing walls to activate it.

Agreed. Didn't I just say we could make the quest harder?

alecalecalec wrote:Boy i'm hella active tonight. Don't you think so? :))

Hellsyeah. :))

21 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:21 am

alecalecalec

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i wouldn't argue with you anymore even if i know you have FVW.

22 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:23 am

Oreo

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anyone login in ? ._. i am bored

23 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:24 am

banryun

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Oreo wrote:no i don't ._. those were newbie wing blue.... i would know if i spend 3 out of 9 of my pocket watch ._.


and btw i am okie with the effect on this wing. if there is any changes i would suggest, that is to add in penalty like what chocula suggested. have posted my suggestion elsewhere already. thx.

You don't think the quest is too easy? Very Happy

24 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:26 am

Oreo

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all quest are too easy imho but since the items have already flooded the market i dun see any need to change the quest but to make future item stronger than the current and harder to obtain.

25 Re: Nerf this wing on Sun May 23, 2010 12:30 am

banryun

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Oreo wrote:all quest are too easy imho but since the items have already flooded the market i dun see any need to change the quest but to make future item stronger than the current and harder to obtain.

Agreed and noted! I'm considering pitching a new quest idea to Njord if the current plans don't push through.

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